WP Mainline Episode 22 - State of The Word 2021 Recap

Speaker 1 00:00:19 Welcome everybody to episode 22 of the WP mainline podcast for Friday, December 17th, 2021. I am your host, Jeff Chandler and joined, uh, by, uh, Malcolm Peralta. Hello, sir. Hello? Hello? Hello? Hello indeed. How has your week been? Speaker 2 00:00:36 It's been okay. Uh, it's, it's hard to get things done with everyone already kind of on holiday brain, but other than that, it's going well. Speaker 1 00:00:43 Yeah, well, I, I tell you, one thing I'm getting pretty concerned with is all my, all my crime, uh, variant it's going around. Cause cause now it's like, you know, I was fine with wearing a mask everywhere, but now it seems like this variant is to the point where I have to actually, uh, purchase some and 95 mask or kn 95 mask and start wearing those out in public. If I want to really protect myself from this new variant, the good news is I'm back double bank's needed. We're trying to schedule our boosters as soon as possible. And from what I've been able to tell the vaccines are doing, from what we can tell, we've been doing a great job of battling these, these variants and mostly all the bad news I'm seeing. And, uh, 95% of all hospitalizations here in my state are from people who are not vaccinated. It's it's a damn shame. Speaker 2 00:01:34 It certainly is. And I, I mean, I think, uh, Speaker 1 00:01:38 From what I've heard, you're actually going to have spot right now. Yeah, Speaker 2 00:01:41 Actually we're probably the worst in the, in Ontario. I think there were some fair and we're one of the worst in all of Canada right now. Um, it's, it's actually really sad. A lot of it is 18 to 29 year olds. Um, and, uh, yeah, you would just think that they would be vaccinated, but I think they still think they're invincible. So that's just the way it is sometimes Speaker 1 00:02:02 With, with youth comes a feeling of vulnerability and you have to learn the hard way sometimes. Okay. So I'm sorry for starting to show off and abandon. I mean it's important. And uh, and in fact with all my crime, I hope I'm saying that right. Cause there's a whole work about that. I had all my crown, all my crime crime, uh, so an event took place this week where people from the WordPress community, highly esteemed special folks, uh, in fact, five for the five contributors, uh, they were invited to attend these state of the word 2021, which took place in New York city at the, uh, know-hows, uh, office kind of automatic satellite office. In fact, we learned that, um, the venue that it was, uh, the event was in was actually, uh, a headquarters building for tumbler and a lot of the tumbler workers, uh, we're working from that space, but not too many people from Tumblr are in that space and making use of it in a, I think mass says they have it until 20, 23 maybe, but they had the space for another year or two. Speaker 1 00:03:13 So he said he opened it up and said, if anybody would like to do, you know, uh, meetings or meetups or conferences or anything rubbing around open-source and whatnot there, that he'd be open to, to allow in that venue to open it up for the community to, to use, which I thought was really cool. Cause it's venue spaces. I mean, it's New York city, everything costs an arm and a leg and your right toe. Uh, so being able to have, if you're local to that area, being able to have a venue like that, to do a meetup in, um, as a pretty cool deal, pretty good thing. But then, you know, you've got the variants going around, who knows if you want to meet up at this point, anyways, the event took place. There was about, it looked like 30 to 40 people attended the state of the word where Matt mulloway pretty much gave a roundabout, uh, summary of what's been taking place. Speaker 2 00:04:01 It was just that number, even just that number is kind of interesting. Like originally it was to be 50 people and actually during the introductory kind of, um, like the start of the presentation Matt actually had to ask, and then that created a cascade where everyone wanted to move up closer. And I dunno, it was just really funny that little like awkward moment of know everyone's shuffling seats, but there was, there was, uh, more than like half a dozen seats that were available, um, for people that either couldn't attend or didn't attend or I'm not sure, but I thought that was kind of interesting. Speaker 1 00:04:35 Yeah. And I should note that everybody who was there in attendance had to be vaccinated, had to have the vaccination card, had to present proof of vaccination, be able to participate in that event. So there were some safeguards in place now, hopefully all those people that were there when they get home, they take some rapid tests, you know, to see if maybe they possibly have the new Varian and whatnot, you know, that's up to them. Uh, but anyways, yes, so some that kind of started off with, uh, contributions and what's been going on in the, uh, in, in the state of WordPress. And, uh, the first thing I'll say is that I was watching live via YouTube YouTube stream. And the first 10 or 15 minutes of the YouTube stream was terrible. I constantly got errors, uh, streaming areas. And it got to the point where I was getting, quite frankly, I was getting pissed off because you know, this was important information. And every time I log in, it's like, Nope, can't Nope, stream air, stream, air. And I kept having to refresh and a lot of people were experiencing, experiencing the same problem. Uh, unbeknownst to me, this event was also streaming on Facebook and Twitter, and those really didn't have any issues. So I don't know what happened between the two, but what now, Speaker 2 00:05:46 The problem with those other locations, those they don't have that live chat. So like one of the cool things about coming to that YouTube thing, a whole bunch of names and faces that I haven't seen in ages, like kind of chiming in and saying hello to everyone. And that was a really cool feeling. So I ended up having the Facebook stream open and the YouTube stream, like pause so that I could still see the chat on YouTube while I was watching it on Facebook. It was really Speaker 1 00:06:09 Ridiculous. Yeah. It was cool to, to hang out and see people watching from India and Nigeria, Africa, all over the world, all, all sitting together, watching this presentation and all United through WordPress in that, in that chat room, uh, which was, which was pretty cool. But once the, uh, once the stream got going and it worked, it was fine. It was okay. It was just a little frustrating there at the beginning. So Matt started off by talking about, uh, there's eight new core committers now for 2020 and 2021, uh, which is fantastic. These are the people who had the keys to the castle, so to speak. They had the ability to make commits to WordPress core and change the code at runs on 40, 43% of websites that are out there. So it's, it's a highly esteemed, uh, position that, uh, requires a lot of responsibility. So congrats to those eight individuals, if you have not, oh, go ahead. Speaker 2 00:07:05 Can we just pause and like also highlight how great it is if there's a little bit more diversity in this group than previous groups? I mean, um, Speaker 1 00:07:11 Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not the early days. It was like eight people in a click, you know, it's not like that anymore. Speaker 2 00:07:17 Yeah. It's not just eight old men, old white guys or whatever anymore. Like there's some, some women who are now able to be core contributors, able to be who have risen through the ranks to become who have fought their way to be able to do this. Um, people from like east Asia and other ethnicities. I mean, like, this is really great to see that it's not just, you know, a group of eight old white dudes that were just added. I think that's worth kind of pointing out. Speaker 1 00:07:41 Um, I'm right there with you. Thank you for highlighting that. Uh, if you have not taken a look at the, uh, wordpress.org/new site lately, you probably should because it's going to be going through a redesign. I'm taking a look at it right now and it's not live as of yet, but at some point in 2022, it's going to be redesigned with some jazz aesthetics. It's going to be a based theme, of course. And it's going to take advantage of what we're priests 5.9 has to offer with full site editing. Of course, step foresight editing means nothing to us because we're just going to be viewing the content, but it's supposed to look pretty nice and pretty good in this part of a larger revamp of wordpress.org in general, uh, which is probably long overdue. I think, I think Matt was saying the last time they redesigned were preset org. The news portion of the site was like, we're press 3.0, so it's been awhile. Speaker 1 00:08:37 Uh, one of the other things he talked about, and this was, this is pretty important. This is one of the actual, like one of the most important things. One of the highlights for me during this whole state of the word, he talks about open verse and he talks about how it was brought into WordPress from creative common search. And it's going to a large focus on audio photos and additional media assets, which are going to be made available in the coming months, uh, for those who don't know, uh, creative commons, which has been around for at least 20 years, uh, they've been involved with creating licenses around content. That's kind of like, it's not exactly, you know, GPO is a, is a license for freedom and that's for software. But when it comes to content media that we have creative commons and, uh, what you're able to do is, uh, they weren't able to financially keep it afloat anymore. Speaker 1 00:09:28 So may I, and maybe I think it was through automatic or whatnot, uh, kind of acquire them, brought it over. And I was going to be housed under the wordpress.org umbrella, which I think is a really cool thing, uh, that to keep it going. And right now you can, it's going to be renamed open verse. And if you go to wordpress.org/open verse, right now, you can search from millions of different photos and stuff. Uh, Matt said that they're bringing over the audio portion, uh, in January. So that's something really cool. And on the side, um, we're of that org, it was kind of soft launched or in the state of the word, but it's wordpress.org/photos. And Matt Malo is they're creating a photo directory of CC zero licensed images, which is, which is really cool because the CCO license is like, it's pretty much people putting their photography in the public domain. Speaker 1 00:10:24 So when you use a CCO licensed image, you don't have to worry about so much like attribution or whether you want to use it in a commercial setting or what have you. It's basically look, here's my image. I'm contributing it, use it however you want. It's kind of like what the licenses. So I think it's really cool that we're going to have this photo director and I've already submitted a photo today to it. And, uh, it's, it's in soft launch right now. And, uh, there's some questions that were brought, I think, um, Adam Warner actually, uh, during the Q and a session brought up a good question on how is this going to handle XF data and some of the other maybe personally identifiable information. And right now that hasn't been really thought of or addressed just yet, but it is a point of contention that they're going to figure out and work on. Um, and these guidelines, if you look at the guidelines for the photo directory, it it's pretty, uh, some of them are pretty substantial. And the one that actually bums me out is you have to pretty much own your artwork, own the photograph. And there's a guideline in here that says, photo photos must not consist solely of the artwork of others, such as paintings, drawings, and graffiti. You know what that means? I don't think I'm going to be able to submit photographs of trains with graffiti on them. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:11:36 So I, I, I saw you tweet this and I, and maybe post it somewhere else as well. I'm not sure I think, um, but as soon as I saw it, my first thought was there's, there's a specific word there that I think lets you kind of get away with submitting train cars with graffiti on them solely. No, if it has like multiple train cars, molded pieces of graffiti on it, it's not necessarily like you're not ripping off someone else's artwork just to promote their artwork. Um, and again, it's a little bit more public or open for those kinds of things because you have a train out in the world kind of thing. It's not like, um, Speaker 1 00:12:12 Like a mural on a wall. Speaker 2 00:12:13 Exactly, exactly. So I think you're going to be able to get through it and post your train pictures there. I think it's going to be completely fine and, and I hope they accept them and enjoy them. Um, one of the funniest things to me though during that part of the presentation was Matt, uh, with a little chagrin on his face going, you know, we swear we named this before Facebook and their whole thing. Um, you know, the, they call it the meta search on the open verse. Uh, and then it was kind of like tongue in cheek. Like he, so hopefully, hopefully they won't have to change the name or anything cause you know, Facebook is not small, but I just thought, I thought that was kind of a funny job at the whole crazy verse thing that's happening in the world right now, Speaker 1 00:12:52 Taking a look at the photo directory, my, uh, photo has been approved. So it's just a picture of fall colors along the Cuyahoga river that I took a few years ago. And who knows how somebody is going to use this image. It'd be cool to kind of track if somehow some way I was able to see wine or how somebody uses my image. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:13:12 Just reverse image search on Google when it gets like when it starts getting used a little bit about the submission process. Talk a little bit about, um, the moderation process. I think those two things were interesting as well. Speaker 1 00:13:23 Uh, the moderation process. I actually, I have no idea who is part of the team who was doing it, who's doing what, um, I do know that when you submit a photo, uh, you print it, you had to give it, you can only submit one at a time maximum of 250 characters for your description. And there's all these, these lists of things that you have to confirm such as, uh, you have the copyright or the legal right to upload the image you're going to make it available under CC zero. Uh, photo is an actual photograph, not a screenshot or digital art photos, high quality doesn't contain overlays like watermarks or copyright notices. It's not, over-processed, it's not a collage composite of multiple photographs. Doesn't have to pick violence or hate or sexual content. That's a gimme photo must not consists mostly of text photo. As we just mentioned, uh, must not consist solely of the artwork of others. Speaker 1 00:14:15 Photo must not contain identifiable faces. And photo must not be a minor variation of something you have submitted to this site before. So there's a whole list of contingencies that you have to make sure that your photograph abides by before uploading them. And most of those make sense to me, um, in order to have this directory there. And, and the reason why I think this directory is cool, one of the reasons is when we look towards the future, and this is something Matt brought up a couple of times when he talks about the idea of open verse and contributing back to the, to the commons, is these things, these directories that are CC zero for content, and eventually just going to this is going to expend, um, extend to audio, uh, fonts, uh, maybe various other assets that, you know, theme developers can use. So, and I think this will be exciting if you're a theme developer, uh, creating a theme and creating the starter content, looking for fonts that have licenses you can use at a competitive with the GPL, uh, the images, the photography that you use in your theme. Speaker 1 00:15:23 I know a lot of theme authors probably still use Unsplash and, uh, but Unsplash, as we've seen before can sometimes, and they've done this in the past. They can just pull the rug out from under you and change the licensing terms, uh, without any say, say, say so from you and or anybody else and Matt kind of joked about that. Uh, he didn't highlight, he didn't say Unsplash specifically, but I, I, he had to have been referencing them when he joked about that. Uh, it's going to be CC zero on wordpress.org and that is going to be indefinite, uh, that the license will not change and mean they, he said unlike some other companies and the first thing I thought it was Unsplash cause he made a big deal about that. So in terms of having a website or, uh, under the wordpress.org umbrella, that you can go to defined media images, audio fonts, other things that you can use in your website, um, or, you know, especially for when it comes to creating themes, I think it's going to be awesome. And it's not just for WordPress people. This is a resource as Matt says for, I mean he says humanity, but I mean for the general web overall. Speaker 2 00:16:29 Yeah. And that way your website doesn't have to Speaker 1 00:16:31 All be burned pictures, right? That's yeah, yeah. It doesn't have to be a bird pictures, but I mean, you know, Matt talks about the open web and we all talk about the open web and how, uh, you know, we, we would like it to be more open, but it seems to be closed down more commercial closed down behind walls. So I think if, instead of relying on someone else, if someone of the organization out there to create the CC zero directories or repositories for, for information, for items for media, Matt through open verse is just going to do it himself. And this is just going to be part of the legacy now of, of wordpress.org, where it's not just about a code, but now it extends. It's going to extend way beyond just code and software, which is, Speaker 2 00:17:19 Which is what we definitely should be doing with all of this. All the people power that we have behind these projects. Speaker 1 00:17:26 Absolutely. So Matt also mentioned that, uh, the WordPress pattern directory was launched and it's going to be in fact, WordPress 5.9 has built in a pattern suggestion library. I think you can, uh, maybe able to browse through the pattern library through 5.9, maybe not, but the parenting library is pretty cool because if you go visit the pattern directory, you can click a button from there, paste it into the block editor and boom, whatever was there on the panning directory site you can have right there in your site. That that is pretty powerful stuff. Speaker 2 00:17:58 Yeah, I agree. It, it will certainly make things, um, you know, easier and better over time for people that are like getting into really kind of designing content pages for their websites. Um, my kind of gotcha on this of course will always be the WordPress pattern directory only supports the core blocks. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:18:20 I was just going to, I was just going to bring that up. Yeah. So that's a limiting factor. Speaker 2 00:18:25 It's cool. But I, I, I'm a little bit concerned about that. So I think that, you know, as the block editor grows and improves and maybe more core blocks are added, I think that this will become more and more useful, but even just with the few patterns that they already have, I'm looking at this and going, man, that'd be a real pain in the butt for me to like do as it like front end development on. It's nice that I can just like copy paste that swap some images and colors, look at how great that looks. It's so much better than what I could typically or easily do. So I'm excited to see this move forward. Speaker 1 00:18:56 Uh, there was some stats that were released for the various, uh, make WordPress projects in teams. He talks about, uh, polyglots had a great year. Um, there were 13,659 language packs in core with 15,900 active translators making WordPress more accessible to the entire globe. Uh, and this is all part of a project at, um, an open source project that they use for translations called Glock press in case anybody forget about that. So glad press is probably handles like most of the translations and things of that nature language packs. Um, there was also some improvement on the diversity and WordPress front. There was 135 participants in 66 cities and 16 countries that participated in the various diversity and WordPress workshops, which I think is comprised of three different programs, uh, which helps add diversity in terms of speaking. And we're push contributions throughout the community and learn. WordPress also saw, uh, some gains with 186 social learning spaces, 73 workshops, 70 lesson plans, and two courses in 21 different languages. And there's still a lot of work to be done. And the learn wordpress.org. Speaker 2 00:20:13 Yeah. Matt actually highlighted that as kind of one of the key things he hopes we'll kind of see some real power, but behind it over the next year, because there are only like there's two courses and they're apparently they're fairly deep courses, but he's like, you know, I like to see that grow and be a lot bigger and more deep and more interesting, more engaging. And it is in 21 different languages, but I mean, that's nothing compared to, you know, 13,000 language packs. So, um, you know, if you're interested in contributing to WordPress, I mean, this is, this is an area that does not necessarily require a technical skill to help with. So, you know, see what you can do contributors. Welcome. Speaker 1 00:20:49 Matt also went over the numbers, the market share numbers, according to w three texts. He highlighted those, uh, never remember last week we talked about the market share analysis that Yoast DevOp did. Uh, and Matt also iterated on the point that we brought up last week and he said that, wow, the good news from the numbers is that WordPress still leads the pack by a very fair margin. The bad news is that open source, other than other than WordPress open source is losing in those markets, your numbers. And it's not like WordPress is taking market share from Joomla or Drupal. All of those systems are taking them from what w through texts considers the none that is a CMS that's either custom or is not really identifiable. And he also talked about the, the sharp increase in growth from like Shopify, Wix and Squarespace. Uh, so you just, you just brought up that kind of concern in that, you know, he also mentioned that he feels like, I didn't know this, but I guess droop on Tuma do not have mobile apps. I would have, I would have thought that those, uh, content management systems that apps and Matt and mentioned that he feels like that's a big, a big opportunity that that's, uh, that they're missing right now, that it would really help them maybe gain market share become more successful as if those two, uh, content management systems had robust and very good apps. Speaker 1 00:22:15 So I don't know. I mean, a Joomla app. I wonder what that, I wonder what that would be like. I, I, yeah, like, I don't know why I just assumed that that, I mean, because everybody has an app, you know, every piece of software is an app, so it was just kind of surprising to hear him say that. And I actually haven't done any research yet to go look and see if there's actually a Drupal app or to my app on both the apple store or, uh, you know, the Google play store. But, uh, yeah, if anybody's out there listening, you know, get, get Groupon, Juma involved, get an app going, uh, we need them to get more market share or something. I don't know. Speaker 2 00:22:48 Um, one of the interesting spinoffs though, I really wanted to kind of do as an aside is there's been a conversation on Twitter, um, and Yost just posted about it, um, on the 13th that some of the market share growth can probably be attributed to elementary growth over the last little while. Um, with a growth in, um, April from 3.8% for, uh, elementary is market share up to 6.7%. And so it looks like, you know, actually a large percentage of WordPress's growth is actually been in part thanks to elementary growth, which in my opinion, just kind of proves the fact or the reason why the block editor has become such an important part of WordPress is to try to like get people away from the Wix is, and Squarespaces and web flows of the world and continue to use WordPress and element, or kind of is a quick way to do that. So, um, I just thought that was kind of a, an interesting thing to point out that, uh, you know, maybe a lot of what we need to see even on Drupal and Joomla is more of that, uh, you know, drag and drop kind of feel, or that lower lowering the bar of entry to be able to kind of make cool things. Speaker 1 00:23:52 Yeah. Ella mentor has huge numbers, both in growth in market share and use. And I think it's a valid argument to make that because of Ella mentor, uh, WordPress has seen a uptick in growth, uh, then again, without element or without WordPress, there's no ELA mentor. So yeah, and there's also been some discussion as to whether what the future of element where, uh, whether or not they could possibly break off and turn it, turn their software into a service. So you have Elementor software as a service to, to unbreak that dependency of WordPress. So maybe that would help them increase their market, share even more to where it's not, you can't, you don't have to worry about, um, you can't just use WordPress or Elementor on WordPress, but now you can use it like in Drupal or Joomla or somewhere else. I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen there with the future of LMI tour, but that is a behemoth of a page builder and a product in the WordPress space. Speaker 1 00:24:45 And in fact, uh, I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot of people out there who, um, somehow get ahold of WordPress and it has elemental built in, or it's on automatically installed. And they think WordPress is Elementor. Yes. For sure. I bet you that's a thing. Yeah. So speaking of themes, uh, black themes grew from just two themes in 2020 to 28 themes available in 2021. And that's one of the things that Matt really wants to see grow. I mean, he says he wants to see 5,000, you know, black, black themes, uh, by the end of 2022. And I think that's a bit ambitious of a number of some other people think that's a bit ambitious, but at the same time with tools like, uh, Dwight to calm that David, I constantly call, uh, David Dwyer, Dwayne I'm so sorry, David. It's like Dwight that the first thing that comes to mind, but, um, he's come up with a theme that Jason theme generator and I think tools like his and others will be created throughout the new year, especially once 5.9, uh, hits the masses and through those tools, I think those are going to play a considerable role in getting those black base themes, uh, get that number increased on the pristine directory, you know, Speaker 2 00:26:04 Really helped me though when it comes to the theme directory, a better flipping demo version of a theme. It's so hard to know, right? Like even if we'll look through the block themes, like they say, there's 28 block names go into the Speaker 1 00:26:18 Theme directories, Achilles heel. Speaker 2 00:26:20 Yeah. Go, go demo all, all 28 of those. And I bet you any money you're going to get confused over like 10 of them. Like, wait, isn't that the same theme that I just looked at? Because the demos look so similar for a lot of these block based themes or a lot of these like more simple themes that it can be so hard to tell like what the competitive or advantages or the unique selling point of the theme is because of how bad the demo looks, man. Like you have to depend on the photo, but you have no idea how to get to that place. Right. That you look at the photo and you're like, man, that looks really good. And then you go load the thing, but demo and you see like, oh, that doesn't look good. How hard is it going to be for me, someone who doesn't know technology. And I'm just speaking in generals are generalities. Um, how hard is it gonna be for me to be able to get to that photo that I saw that looked really cool from this demo, that looks really horrible. So I wish I wish they would do something about the demos on, on the theme directory. Speaker 1 00:27:10 I mean, what, what you just said is something that's been brought up over the years. I mean, like I said, it's the theme directories, number one, Achilles' heels demo page because people window shop for pressing it's. In fact, Matt even brought this up there in the state of the world. He talks about how, when they did user testing, that he added a photograph, he took of sheep to like the theme page or part of the theme. And that's what people drew people in and said that they wanted to use that theme because they liked sheep. They like that photo of, of, uh, of the sheep. So it's like, I don't know how, I don't know what they're going to do or how they're going to change the thing directory. Did he get the themes actually look the way that they looking at in that demo screenshot. Speaker 1 00:27:50 But I, I got to imagine that with block-based themes and how things are changing and deemed at Jason and what have you, that the infrastructure updates that's going to need to take place across WordPress org? Um, I think it's going to be easier. I have no idea that maybe it's going to be possible this time around, but yeah, absolutely. It'd be nice to click the demo and boom, it's right there. Exactly what it's supposed to look like. And now you can just tinker around with it. Yeah. Window shopping for themes, man. Over the years, I remember back in the day, a long time ago, I would just browse the directory and then I browse Google and it was all like all these different themes. I clicked view demo, and I view the demo on all of them. It's a man that looks good. That looks good. I can't tell you how much money I wasted by him themes. And the fact that it looks good here. And I have a vision in my head. And when I try to implement that vision into the theme, I said, man, I just wasted $50. Speaker 2 00:28:47 Yeah. Unfortunately, Speaker 1 00:28:48 Um, man, Matt also brought up the fact that the widgets and the sidebar can now be managed by the black editor, uh, which is neat. They also mentioned the query block, which is a very powerful block. Uh, that's now available. It's essentially the post loop, but now you can place it anywhere you want throughout your website in a block, you don't have to write any PHP code, which is really cool. They also showed off a demo of duo tone filters, which to me, uh, duo tone is like, it was, I kind of like mad, but when I saw it and saw the actual demo of in and get more of a description of how it works. Okay. I can see how it's pretty cool and it can make images to make even just pop Speaker 2 00:29:30 A lot. They spent a lot of time on this though, like for what it is. Right. I feel like they spent a lot of time on the whole like, look at what you can do with images. Look what you can do with like all of your designs, like, you know, the consistency that you can get and stuff like that. Like they, I feel like they spent a lot of time on this. It must've been a bit of a technical challenge for how much time they spent on the presentation on duo tone. Speaker 1 00:29:54 Yeah. That, and I think to me, I think the demos are very important. I think it's very important for these features, especially these, these visual ones, instead of reading, reading about it, to actually see how they work. I think the demo is playing an important role in getting, getting the average user or people who are interested in what's going on in WordPress to go, oh, that's what that is. No, I've heard about it. I've read about it. But if that's how it works, that's cool. I think that's the demos play a major part and there's quite a few demos actually in the state of the word. Uh, Matt then went on to talk about how word press 5.7 had 481 contributors. 24% were new, uh, WordPress 5.8 had 530 contributors with a quarter of those being new. And he mentioned that there's still time for people to get involved and contribute to WordPress 5.9, uh, something I've brought up and we've talked about, I think we may have talked about it on the show briefly. Speaker 1 00:30:47 There's been a lot of conversations around, uh, open source contributors and getting paid. How did, how, how to help those folks contribute to open source. And I, and I'm, and I brought it up a few times, like WordPress relies on free labor and, and sponsored contributor is people who are paid by companies to work on WordPress for full time. I think there's only a finite amount of resources in time before that, well of free labor dries up. And then what happens? What do you do? What, you know, then everybody ends up having to become paid or something, but looking at these contributor numbers and so many of them being new, um, maybe it's not as bad as I think it is, or it's not as much of a concern as maybe I've been making it out to be, cause we're still getting an influx of new contributors and we're 530 of them, 25% being new. I mean, it's, it's not like a WordPress is being maintained by, by three people in Missouri. Speaker 2 00:31:44 Yeah, no, I'm, I'm pretty impressed with these numbers too. And I agree with you. It's not as bad as a lot of people make it sound. Um, I didn't necessarily think it was bad because I constantly seen new names in the WordPress world that I'm like, who the heck are you? I, you know, I'm like, get off my lawn. I've been here forever kind of thing. Right. So, but like, honestly, it's, it's really impressive how many people are, you know, finding their way into this project every single day. Um, and they're coming from everywhere around the world and it's just so inspiring to see what they do Speaker 1 00:32:13 And the topic that a lot of people were interested in hearing Matt talk about what's web three and what is it, how is WordPress going to get involved? What does he think of it? And I think Matt did a pretty good job of skimming the surface of his thoughts on what web three is, how we're pressed is poisoned already in a position to take advantage of what some of the concepts of what 0.3 is, which is participating from anywhere, being able to host it from anywhere you're limited by only your time and creativity can create your own forks or your own feeds or out for your own needs of, of WordPress. You kind of already have some of these things built into WordPress that you can do, which is part of the whole web three concept. But by and large, he didn't, he didn't really talk about NFTs and minting and ownership, ownership, and licensing and all that stuff, but he kind of skimmed the surface and he didn't do a deep dive, but I think he did just enough to let people know that, Hey, I'm aware of this, um, keep tabs on it, apply some of the apply some your common sense filters to these things. Speaker 1 00:33:17 Uh, there's definitely some innovations that are going on in this space, but there's also a lot of hucksters and he is not wrong about that. Speaker 2 00:33:26 Yeah. He certainly didn't say learn like, and Speaker 1 00:33:30 Learn Speaker 2 00:33:30 Web 3d. Everyone. I remember a lot of people before the event because he kind of shot it out there that he was going to bring it up as one of his main talking points. Um, and actually it wasn't as big of a deal in the, in the overall presentation. It was kind of like not a footnote, but it was just kind of like a, yeah, we know this exists. We know people are interested in it. We, you know, we want to be, we want to participate, but we're, you know, cautiously optimistic about this whole thing I think is the best way to put it. So, um, I don't know. It, it definitely, it definitely didn't strike me as like, oh, that is so cool. Or like looking to the future or being like our first mover advantage kind of thing. It was just more like we know it exists and we're keeping our eye on it. Speaker 1 00:34:16 Now, one of the other parts of the state of the word that I found particularly interesting now, I'm glad he brought this up and talked about, it was the acquisitions that have taken place and WordPress throughout this year. And he showed a slide with the logos of 40 to 42 different companies, uh, that were involved in some sort of merger or acquisition this year. And he talks and he talked about how, I mean, he was aware of the conversations going on, that there's something weird going on with just WordPress or just consolidation going on with WordPress. So he like, he, um, he does what he likes to do. And he, he talks about this concept of what was going on, but he bring in a broader sense about her and, but what's going on across the world economically. And he showed a couple of different, uh, slides with statistics. One was the mergers and acquisitions number in the, the bar went almost off the chart in terms of what's happening in the technology sector, but especially worldwide. Uh, so it's not just that there's a lot of acquisitions happening in WordPress, but they're happening across the world this year. I mean, at a record number of, of money, that's exchanging hands, Speaker 2 00:35:25 But didn't it feel a little bit like a straw man argument too. Like, don't worry about this thing. That's happening in an area that you care about. Look at the fact that it's so much smaller than this other graph over here. Like it, just, to me, it didn't, it doesn't matter that it's happening widely or it's happening in other niches or other places around the world or whatever. To me, I would've, I would've really liked to kind of get a little bit more deep understanding from him on why he thinks, um, like now is the time that these kinds of things are happening or, um, what this says about the community in general or, um, how maybe WordPress or Automattic are gonna help highlight, um, you know, smaller organizations that are, that are trying to like, you know, fill in the gaps left by some of these acquisitions. I don't know. I just, I, I think he could have done more to talk about this in a way that wasn't like downplaying how important this is to the WordPress community. Speaker 1 00:36:25 I don't know the way he presented it and showed those charts. It made me think, well, okay, this isn't such a big deal. This is happening globally. And it just so happens that all these companies got acquired and were pressed. So what's the big deal. I mean, so I don't know, but I know Speaker 2 00:36:41 A little man is Speaker 1 00:36:41 Critical. Yeah. Yeah. But I'm glad he brought it up and I glad he talked about it. So Speaker 2 00:36:45 I agree. I agree. I'm glad it was part of his presentation. Speaker 1 00:36:48 And he also spent some time discussing the five for the future initiative. And he showed a chart of companies that contributed or sponsor time for the, through five for the future, uh, uh, for WordPress 5.6. And you know, it's no surprise that automatic is the biggest bulb when they're at 70 contributors, but Yost was the next, uh, company has 16, but, but Matt's point was that the size of the company does not mean they have more, does not necessarily mean they have more influence over the say in the amount of contributions they make to WordPress core, uh, Yost was 16, uh, is a substantially less company or employee wise, uh, than like let's say GoDaddy. Okay. But, but, but Yoast is making quite a bit of impact through their contributions and the various parts of WordPress that he contribute to and work on. So basically the five for the future, Matt says you would like the, the, the future of the graph to be more larger bubbles, more companies with more people from those companies involved with contributing to WordPress. Speaker 1 00:37:55 And in my opinion, I think defined for the future initiative is going to, uh, take up more precedents, uh, within the next few years, especially as, you know, as Matt says, we cannot, I don't want to misquote him, but he describes, you know, the tragedy of the commons. And, and we don't want to end up in a situation where all these companies are selflessly thinking of their own interests and take, take, take, but not giving back to the point where now all resources are exhausted and now everybody's screwed. So, uh, he kind of emphasized, uh, trying to get more people involved, you know, hour. He says out of your 40 hour work week, you know, you can 5% of your time it's two hours, or was it, was it two hours out of a hundred and something hours during the week? I dunno something to the point where like two hours, but, you know, he stresses of trying to get more and more people, especially those employers who are having financially financial success by building that top of the WordPress platform and ecosystem to get those people to start paying up, to start contributing back. Speaker 1 00:39:05 And it doesn't take a lot of money and it does, it just takes time and resources. Well, I say that, but then time is money for a lot of people know, without them running, you don't have time. Speaker 2 00:39:15 Yep. Yeah. And I mean, my counterpoint to this is that, you know, these agencies are kind of giving back to WordPress. Maybe not directly through like code contribute, like contribution. Speaker 1 00:39:27 Oh, by just by, just by just building the site, their claim site. Speaker 2 00:39:31 Sure. Think about it, right? Like they're, there they're potentially developing solutions for customers they're, um, exposing like fortune 500 companies to WordPress they're, um, teaching a whole bunch of people how to use WordPress through like developing these projects for these different niches. So there's, there's a whole bunch of ways that they are kind of giving back. It's just not as direct. It's a little bit more subtle. Um, so I mean, these, th all of these things help keep WordPress alive, right? If no one's buying the software to use on e-commerce websites, then that means these companies don't have the money to invest in it anyways. So it's kind of it, you know, it is, there are things that are happening in that respect that are maybe not five for the future. Um, but I think that this graph could be much more interesting if it included like every company that was building on WordPress, because, you know, they're on the fringes of this graph, um, continuing to kind of expose WordPress to a greater audience, Speaker 1 00:40:30 Looking at all these companies, taking advantage of open source software. We know, I'm sorry, am I going to get hate mail? And should I give up, Speaker 2 00:40:39 But let's think about this, right? So let's say you're a developer, Jeff, and you are working for an agency like Canberra creative, and you've just developed a website for a client. And you do that. You had to, um, adjust some code for woo commerce and you go, and you submit that code to WooCommerce is a bug fix or a patch for the future version of WooCommerce. You didn't participate in five for the future, but you did just give back to WordPress, right? Those are the kinds of, those are the kinds of things that I'm thinking about. Speaker 1 00:41:08 I'm not even a developer, but I contributed back toward press today. You want to know how I I'm running WordPress 5.9, beta three, NWP mainline. And today I finally decided, you know what, I'm going to create some reusable blocks that are for my show notes page for the podcast. That way I don't have to create these blanks every single time. So I created a, uh, a, the blacks I use put them all in a row, kinda made a template. I selected all those blocks collect. I clicked a little button and I clicked the link that says, add two reusable blocks. The model comes up where I get to name the, this reusable block. And I was typing in some words, and I hit backspace to correct a typo, and that made the modal disappear. And all of my selected blocks disappeared. There were no, they were deleted. Speaker 1 00:41:59 And I, and I, and I said to myself, what the hell just happened? I said, wait a minute. That's not supposed to work. So I said, well, how do they have, so what I ended up doing? Cause I, and when I did control Z, which is undo the blocks, didn't come back. I couldn't restore my content from control Z. So I said, oh, well this sends a gun. So I reloaded the page, exited out reloaded. Then I did it, did it again. And I found out that it didn't matter just hitting the backspace key with that modal up, deletes the Moto and deletes the select blocks. And they could led, it could lead to a loss of content when I was actually happening to me. If those reusable blacks had content in them, for me, it was just more like a template. But yeah, so I actually went to track, uh, uh, created the ticket, explain how to reproduce it. Speaker 1 00:42:46 That ticket has now been filed. It's considered a high status, and I believe it will be fixed. I mean, to me, it's a blacker because it could lead to lost content. But right now it's a, it's, it's a high status and it will probably get fixed, uh, either as part of a port, uh, beta four release, or definitely before, uh, 5.9 was released to the public. But it just so happens to be that the one time I want to try and use reusable blocks that discover a critical bug. And you know what? I got kind of excited when I found it. No doubt, no doubt. I thought you named your block, like drop tables or something. I don't know. I don't know. Speaker 1 00:43:27 Anyways, that was cool to create a ticket. Again, it's been so long since I created the ticket and this is actually a critical and important bug. So I'm glad, uh, I'm, I'm happy. I was able to do my small part there and at least reporting the issue. Giving back to the state of the word. Matt mentioned, he reminded us that we're part of a we're in the midst of the four phases of Gutenberg. Now easier editing nest started in 2018. Uh, in 2019 was the beginning of the customization phase. Uh, we're still in that. He mentioned that in 20, 23 work will begin on the collaboration phase. And he had mentioned that he doesn't, there's so much work that he feels has to be done in the customization phase, that it wouldn't be right to, to immediately go from customization to collaboration in 2022, because there's still a lot of work that has to be done. Speaker 1 00:44:18 And when somebody mentioned a collaboration, what does that mean? Of course he mentioned Google docs, Google dice site, one of the Primo examples of collaborating and a document where you could see who's editing the same document at once, where they're editing in that document. And I'm like, you know, um, maybe Malcolm and I, you know, when this comes out, I can give them access to like the podcast post type and I can assign them and say, stay in your black or not. We're going to collaborate, but you stay in this block, right. I'm going to assign you a block and you can't go outside of that black. And that's how we're going to collaborate. Speaker 2 00:44:53 I like that. I think that's really Speaker 1 00:44:54 Neat. Speaker 2 00:44:56 I think one of the more interesting parts was not that collaboration was marked as 20, 23, but the fourth phase multilingual did not get a date no year attached to that. Speaker 1 00:45:06 Uh, I, I, I think it was safe on, on math part to do that. I mean, he's mentioned this in a couple of state of the words now that multi-lingual, I mean, we know that multi-lingual is a thing. We know that it is in highly important. In fact, Matt mentioned during the state of the word that he gets, uh, he gets a bit chastised for it. He gets, uh, in, when he does this presentation or does the state of the word in the Europe. Uh, but he didn't know multi-lingual is, is hugely important. Speaker 2 00:45:31 And we should define that. We should, we should define that for the audience. What does that mean? What does multilingual mean? Speaker 1 00:45:35 Being able to speak more than one language, right? Speaker 2 00:45:38 Yeah. So being able to produce content and more than one language, right? Like one of the issues that we have here in WordPress right now is if you wrote a post in English and then you wrote a post in French or Spanish, um, WordPress doesn't really handle that. Well, there's plugins to help Speaker 1 00:45:54 Handle that. That's one of the big plugins that allows us. Speaker 2 00:45:57 Yeah. And I think that it's kind of sad that it's not part of core because again, like, yes, I could install WordPress now and I could use a language pack to make it Spanish. And then I could write all my posts in Spanish, but if I wanted an English version of my website, now it becomes kind of a mess. And, uh, you know, I think Gutenberg and the block editor can kind of help make that more seamless and easier to be able to kind of switch back and forth between the multiple languages. Um, and so I'm looking forward to, Speaker 1 00:46:27 I wonder how that's all gonna work. I mean, so if I set my WordPress site to the us or north American English locale language pack, um, and I have multi-lingual capabilities within WordPress, what does that even mean? Does that mean like I should, or I can set up WordPress to use language packs of my choosing and then visitors? Speaker 2 00:46:53 No, no, I think, I think he'll do block-level translations, right? So let's say you were doing the show notes. You could do like English show notes and Spanish show notes and French show notes. And then depending on which language Speaker 1 00:47:03 Would those be options like selected option sided languages for that black to be available in those languages. Speaker 2 00:47:10 Yeah. But you would, you'd have to either have machine translation or you'd have to write in the values yourself, but yeah, just like we lot does, but just kind of built into core. Speaker 1 00:47:19 Uh, well, that's, that's going to mean an interesting stage of the black editor, just WordPress in general, the whole multi-lingual thing, but that comes after the collaboration aspect and that's in 2023 and we're just now getting into 20, 22. So multilingual, you know, we're about to two to three, four years away. I don't know. Speaker 2 00:47:39 Yeah. I was going to say probably it's probably what's going to happen is we're going to get to 22 Speaker 1 00:47:43 At that time. There'll be a bajillion language practice on word press. Speaker 2 00:47:46 And they'll probably say like phase four of Gutenberg will be 20, 25 would be my guests. Speaker 1 00:47:53 Boy, that's a lot of work to spend that collaboration. Speaker 2 00:47:56 I mean, it's not an easy problem either, right? I mean, even Google docs still messes it up sometimes. So Speaker 1 00:48:02 Exactly. So, I mean, that says where we're kind of in those stages of, uh, of Gutenberg and you're still a work that has to be done work to go. Um, he didn't mention, um, at the end of the state of the word that they have found a host city for work camp, us 20, 22, good old sunny San Diego. So if you're a member of the San Diego WordPress community, and I know there's a lot of you out there, uh, now that they have the host city, I believe the organization team or camp U S team is going to be reaching out to those various communities to try and get organizers to volunteer, to put this event together. Now I'm excited about this. Matt's excited about it. A lot of other people are excited about it. I'm not excited about COVID and all the various variants and how that's going to, uh, we'll have to see how this all plays out because it does have event could very well be canceled. Speaker 2 00:48:59 Well, to be fair, we do have a bit of time between now Speaker 1 00:49:01 And the event. Absolutely Speaker 2 00:49:03 WordCamp, uh, us 20, 22 is not until September. Speaker 1 00:49:07 Yeah. September thereabouts. You mentioned. Um, so I, I, like I said, we'll just, we'll have to see, but, uh, I don't, I don't know for those people who are, or who could potentially be buying, buying flights or Airbnb, is there anything like that? Like maybe a few months in advance, right? Don't make sure if you do that double check the refund policy. I'll just say that because what you don't want to, you don't want to get screwed. We don't know what's going to happen. You Speaker 2 00:49:38 Think if you, if you got sponsored to go, would you Speaker 1 00:49:41 Go, uh, I actually looked it up online and I can take an Amtrak train from Cleveland to San Diego. Speaker 2 00:49:49 Of course, of course. Speaker 1 00:49:50 That's the way you think so, so, so if Bob can do it, why the hell can I, I just need, I just need to find the companies to pay any, to, to be able to do it and come on. It's totally on brand. I mean, yeah. I mean, Bob's doing the Wu on a true chew, but come on, my site is actually about trains and you know, it's in the title, there'll be. Yeah. But anyways, uh, Bob, I love you. And it was so cool to see Bob doing his state of the word trip and following the hashtag the we'll train clan and Twitter, and a really great he's safe. He's on his way back. In fact, it's very cold through Montana and he's what wearing his fight for the future hat. And, uh, he actually, it was pretty cool during the Q and a session. Speaker 1 00:50:33 He asked Matt, he says, look, I traveled all this way. Give me some move for 2022. You know, I want to know what's going to happen with, with wound. It basically came down to more Gutenberg is what Matt said. Uh, but, and then at the end, uh, Bob says, well, that answer was worth 66,000 miles, but what would show, which get the crowd laughing and rolling and going on. Um, and then there's a couple of questions about how youth can get involved with word press, that man answered. How can we, uh, pass on WordPress or get the next generation of developers to, um, take interest and contribute to, and then get involved with WordPress and answer those. Um, I also want to do a special shout out to Courtney Robertson? Um, I was actually going through her, uh, summary of what happened at the state of the word, which is published on the godaddy.com garage. Speaker 1 00:51:23 Uh, there were sort of blog over there. So thank you very much for putting this together. And we covered a lot and I watched the state of the world again today. Oh, by the way, I didn't even mention this, but, uh, because WordPress 5.9 was delayed in December and it's now scheduled for a January release. It turns out that we could possibly have four major releases this year. And it was kind of interesting to me that, uh, not a lot of people picked up on it or share the news of it. Cause I guess it's not surprising or it's not important to them. And it's like a few years ago, boy, that would have been a big deal to have four major releases during the year, but apparently not so much this year for a number of people. Speaker 2 00:52:01 That's interesting. Yeah, for me, when I, when I saw your tweet about that, I was kind of like, actually I consider that a negative. I don't want there to be four major releases every time there's like, so again, a big part of my job is like maintenance of WordPress sites and major releases or minor releases for that matter. And that meaning like taking the time to like check to make sure everything still works on staging. If we're pushing to production on over like a hundred different sites and it's just a real pain in my butt. So, um, I enjoy the, the slower years in terms of releases. So, um, I like bigger monolithic releases with like really cool features rather than a bunch of smaller releases that feel a little bit more rushed. So take your time word, press community three releases is plenty. Speaker 1 00:52:45 So that's pretty much the gist of what went down at the state of the word. Now it was tough to watch it ma is in a room in front of 30 people. And if you watch the state of the word, you kind of get the sense that maybe he's a little bit more free flowing or he's a bit more open or maybe he's a bit laid back. I mean, there were a couple times during the state of the world where it just, I mean, you could, it looked like he was rusty in terms of speaking in front of an audience. There were times where there was some long pause on that. Yeah. There's there's some times where there's some long pauses, there were some tangents, he would tell some funny stories, like the macroeconomics part. And when he talks about pennies and Speaker 2 00:53:33 How did Speaker 1 00:53:33 I get here? Uh, and then, you know, interacting with, with the audience and, and, and the crowd and whatnot, it just seemed to be a different map. But he also mentioned that this was like his favorite one. And I got to see the people who were there in attendance got to be a part of something. I feel a special something that is maybe a once in a lifetime type of event, because it's not every day. You get to show up to a state of the word where there's only 30 people. And then afterwards, you don't have to wait in line to maybe get in five words with Matt before the next person gets in and wants to see him because you're at a 1000, 2000 person conference. So those people actually get to spend time with Matt, uh, talk to him, all those people in the audience, by the way, we're five for the future of contributors, uh, which I also thought was interesting. Speaker 1 00:54:21 And, uh, I don't know, it was just kind of a unique event and I hope that those people that were there made some lifelong memories, uh, because, you know, I may not ever happen again. And those people had a chance to really sit down and have one-on-ones with Matt that were very beneficial. I know, toll for Daraja. He spent some time with Matt talking about bureau press and what he's got plans for to be able to talk it over with Matt face-to-face and to get his approval or get his take or his ideas on something is Speaker 2 00:54:53 We can give him a, might even give him a shadow, got a presentation. Um, a couple of things though. I mean, like, I know we've gone over a lot, but I just want to kinda like do some quick shout outs one. We didn't mention the fact that, um, Joseph, uh, did an introduction at the start. Um, so the executive director of WordPress open source project, um, kind of kicked it off and also weirdly enough, um, kind of blew my brain a little bit was that Matt had just returned from a trip to Antarctica of all places. Speaker 1 00:55:24 He's been there a few times. Speaker 2 00:55:27 Who does that? How do you know? It's just so weird to meet us? Yeah, I guess. I mean, how Speaker 1 00:55:31 Do you avoid burnout? What do you go to Antarctica? Well, Speaker 2 00:55:34 Yeah, I guess you're so disconnected there. Um, but I, I think, you know, I, I wonder, I would love to ask him this question and know, like, I think he's gone to every continent at this point, like for sure. So, uh, it's not something that everyone gets to do and I hope he, uh, is reflective or self-reflective of that opportunity that he's had Speaker 1 00:55:53 You think anyone looks at. I mean, him, him by him going to Antarctica and taking those photos and being able to do that. Do you think anyone out there gets jealous? I was like, Hey, but I mean, at the same time, look, the man is successful. Look what he's created, look what he's done. If he has the ability and the wherewithal and the means to do that, why the hell who should stop him? Speaker 2 00:56:14 That's such an American way of thinking. Speaker 1 00:56:18 What's the Canadian way of, thank you. Speaker 2 00:56:21 Uh, I guess the Canadian way of thinking is that, uh, if he's so wealthy, he should share it with a bunch of the rest of us and bring them, bring us along to his trip to Antarctica. Speaker 1 00:56:31 No. Okay. Trickle down economics or something on, on, on a, on a little bit. It's a little bit more open than that. Anyways. It was pretty cool. He took some great photos. Um, but yeah, you know, Antarctica and, and whatnot, no mask masculinity, Matt where's Matt, you never know. It could be in the us could be in Antarctica. It could be somewhere else. Uh, so, okay. And maybe the other thing I want to talk about is maybe just highlight again, that Matt's focus, at least in this state of the word he talks a lot about not just the open web, but humanity in general and using open source software, especially WordPress and through the CC zero creative license, zeroed images in media, the try and get it. He had mentioned the fact that anyone out there, whoever ends up running a word website on WordPress, that's a little bit left for the CA it's a contribution to the open web by using WordPress and every little bit helps. But, you know, it's just sort of the, his broadened concept of worldly just in the basis of humanity. It's not just WordPress, it's not just open source and the users within our community, but he's got globally led ideas for making humanity better for generations to come. And that's a lot of what I felt came out of this state of the word. Speaker 1 00:58:03 Okay. If you say so, uh, I mean, that's kind of my take on it, but, um, other than that, Jesus is, or is there any other, Speaker 2 00:58:14 And you know, just one other fun little thing, um, if you're on Twitter, go track down Cory Miller search for hashtag state of the word and look for some photos of Corey Miller. Um, it's pretty fun. It's pretty funny. Speaker 1 00:58:29 Uh, I blame her. I blame Carl Hancock for all that, by the way, he actually put that together. It's, it's a photo of Bob Dunn and Matt Mullenweg and some other people. And then right in the background just before, uh, or, uh, you know, it's like he didn't have time to get out of the way. There's Cory Miller staring with his eyes right into the camera, like photo bombing. And he didn't mean to do it. And he, uh, in the video, in the video, you could see him moving out of the way, but, you know, yeah. He was too late. Uh, so-so Corey, very well done. Photo bomb. Speaker 1 00:59:05 It was, it was pretty good. All right. So other than the state of the word, there's a lot to digest there, but, uh, there you go, kind of the state of things. Um, now we get to the end of the year, January, we're press 5.9 full site editing duo tone, you know, is coming to a WordPress near you. And, uh, it's I guess, unless there's other major acquisitions that's going to take place, but before the end of this year, cause who knows, it should be relatively quiet until the end of the year. I hope so. Speaker 1 00:59:41 Uh, yes. Um, so that's going to do it for, oh, you know what I totally forgot. Are you looking to increase your productivity? One tool that helps thousands of what developers and designers do more every day is go to Edie pro and binding site client and project management. Good. 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It's not 40 though, but it's close. Is it ever going to be 40? Uh, unfortunately I know, right? Uh, so that's going to do it for this episode of WP mainland podcasts. Again, you can find show notes and everything else related to the show on WP mainline.com. Have you found me on Twitter at Jeff J E F F R zero in Malcolm. Uh, you can find me at find purpose on Twitter and as always, if you need any help with anything, you check out, press tightened.com or camber creative, and next week being the Christmas a week. We'll talk to you again next Thursday evening. So long everybody